My Thoughts RE: Other Divisions in E-Feds Today

[xwa]

*Note: The following is simply my opinion. It is neither right nor wrong, simply how I am perceiving this. There is to be no flaming, no potshots, no name calling, NO FUCKING DRAMA coming from this thread. This thread is to serve as a constructive means to put an end to a problem that I am currently seeing.*[/u][/i]

*Note 2: I wrote this in another efed place as well, so I'm doing it here to see what kind of a response is given*

By other divisions, I am referring to Tag, cruiserweight, female divisions, etc.

This hit me today. The reason of why other divisions ( this does exclude the main male division ) are failing. There is one source that I see that has in some way, managed to influence us and we are reflecting that very image. In a way, it kind of sickens me that its actually happened, but it has.

The one source that I am referring to, is the WWE.

Let's take a look back at the early 2000. All divisions were successful. Lots of tag teams, lots of cruiserweights, lots of females. Those titles actually meant something to hold. You could turn on WWE ( or WcW for that matter ) and actually see matches with effort put into them. Both techical and high risk. Now lets look at efeds around that time ( mostly text based at the time ). These feds had successful divisions. None of them were lacking with talent. Each person did their damndest to put out quality product.

Now lets flash forward to a couple years ago. The WWE: Cruiserweight divsion: GONE. Tag Division: Barely Alive, Female Division: Kind of alive, kind of a joke ( no offense to any of the female wrestlers ). Lets look at the efeds. I can name one fed that even remotely does any kind of a "cruiserweight" division, though not officially. Tag divisions are barely breathing. They're on fucking life support right now. Female divisions are fucking lacking something fierce.

Somehow, the WWE has managed to plant something in our brains that made us go "OOH, MALE DIVISION = THE MOST IMPORTANT DIVISION EVARRRR!!!" I can see this translating over to efeds as I spoken on in the upper paragraph. I hate the fact that when I look at an efed, the Male division Title sticks out as "the title to win". It somehow over rides the importance of the female division title. Or the Tag team division title. Why is it that some of us can't get it into our heads that these titles are JUST AS IMPORTNAT as the male division title? Why is it that when the Male division title is used as like "Efed Undisputed Champion", it seems to overshadow other divisions main titles?

Geroge Carlin Joke: If it's undisputed...whats all the fighting about? ( Sorry, had to throw that in there for a joke ).

I'm sure I could go on for 3 more paragraphs, but I don't wanna drag it on. My question, to you all is...

How do we make it so every Division Title is on the same level as the Male Division Title?

[MG]

What I got to say is that we always do what WWE does. I haven't seen somebody make a gimmick all I've seen was somebody do a good version of it or a bad version of it. So when it comes to titles we only do this because WWE does it.

It's like trends in life.

I can't even see any title being worth it anymore because of the fact that there is so much less wrestler. You can have a random new guy that come in and see the XWA World title and look at it like "I gotta get that"

I remember when I was watching wrestling in the 2000 I would always say I want the IC title. That's my favorite title man. It was because we saw good shit from it. We would have Main Events from it or even Main Eventers fight for it.

The only way XWA can make it look good is if we

A) Get more people, then get them interested into a title (Not by force)

B) Promote on YT and things as a you tube fed (I think I'm going to do that for y'all cause I'm bored)

C) Keep doing how we do and have a dead Tag Division (Reason I dropped TNN)

[xwa]

Well 2010 I'm planning on helping the Tag Team division. Won't say how, you'll just have to wait and see.

[Thr33XWA]

This is a very interesting question, and I'd be hard pressed not to deny that this very thing in some way or another is happening in the XWA as well. There's a couple of things I can think of as solutions, some are more instant than others.

In the case of say, the Tag Titles, if we got more alliances of existing stars involved as opposed to single handled teams, that could be a big help. The original Viewer Discretion and the Diamond Devils are the only such kinds of that team to have held their respective tag titles here. The more the merrier.

Something else I think that also makes titles lose their luster is when they change hands frequently. Now, in the case of an e-fed there's less scripting of outcomes than say real wrestling, but for as long as I've been in e-feds, lengthy title runs have had more attention to them than one guy winning, then another, then another. I think back to my old LXW fed's Tag Belts and the two guys who had the belts for much of the season, Austin Harris & Roy Trigga. Their success made those belts hotter than any Tag title I've ever seen in a sim-fed. Same could be said for the LXW Title, which the character Jonny Pyro had for almost the whole season...everyone wanted a shot at him. A little closer to modern times now, Kayn's run as Pure Champ & Jasta's NAT title reign were also highly "publicized". What that entails basically is the elusive combination of a strong CAW with a strong character behind it.

The biggest solution that I can come up with though is more active participation from established handlers/characters in order to push these belts and make them more prestigious. I think that would be a huge shot in the arm. Don't get me wrong now, I still believe our Platinum belts are still the top of the top as they very well should be...the represent the best roleplayers in the league generally, which is why we are selective in who goes for them. The rest of the belts are what the league itself makes of them, and I believe across the board more could be done if everyone actively participated in that.

With too many people it's either working a storyline or going for one of the major titles. That's it...no middle ground, no attempt to go for one of the other belts. Perhaps people think of them as stepping stones, I don't know, but it's never been the case. Still, I see more new members than old going for those belts, and that's something that can be fixed again by participation. It's been stated before that we'll allow for lengthy storylines to be made around ANY title, but nothing has become it.

All in all, there's not much on the administrative end that can be done to alleviate this alarming situation. It all comes down to what each member is willing to do, and with that, it's really a matter of each member doing more and/or doing things differently.

[MG]

Oh yeah undeafted titles does get more looks but I noticed that about couple of people that faced Brian has just vanished. Jimmy Vain then my friend too...

Brian Yang is killing CAWs goddamit!!


Um.... Thr33x can I do that Highlight promoting thing for XWA on Rhin0TV?

[van]

I kind of take offense to this talk about the Tag Team division being dead. To anyone who doesn't know, which you should if you pay any attention, I handle The Burns Brothers, and Finesse's handler is The Mobstaz. Since 2008, we've been the driving force of the Tag Team Division. In fact, the four major teams in the XWA since early 2008 has been The Burns Bros, The Mobstaz, The Strike Force and The Bruzas. All teams that are handled by guys who have prominent singles characters as well. And with our singles characters all being on Overload, and all playing major roles on Overload, the Tag Team division is something we've pretty much decided universally is something we'll work into the mix when opportunity arises. I was supposed to have worked an angle with Shake & Quake, but the handler upped and vanished before they even made so much of challenge post. Their have been 4 total Tag Team title matches this year. The 1st defense by The Mobstaz, the match where The Burns Brothers won it back, and they've defended it 2 times since, a rematch against The Mobstaz, and at Ring Rage against TSF. So I don't see where anyone can come off saying nothing is happening in the Tag Team division. Maybe if people actually paid attention to what happens outside of their own lil' IC worlds, they'd see otherwise.

I hate to sound resentful, but it irks me to see people talking about what's not being done, when they're not contributing. Me, Finesse, Hungrywolf (O'Dell) and Yin (Jasta) have held the Tag Team Division afloat for more then a year and a half. Yet other teams come and go before you even see what the hell they look like. Did you, Myke, not bring a Tag Team into XWA in 2008? Anyone remember the l33t Haxxors? Yea, I barely remember them, too. Because they wrestled one match, then went MIA. Then you had teams like The Main Effects, who like Shake & Quake and so many other teams, didn't even bother showing up. Point of the matter is as far as the Tag Team Division goes, don't try to analyze what you don't even have a hand in. If you actually contributed anything to the division, then maybe I'd sympathize. But for over a year and a half, it's been four handlers keep the Division relevant. And we do a damn good job at it. It's not our fault if everyone's so caught up in their own stuff that they don't see us do what we do.

[MG]

I see it man. I was in the little rivalry y'all had man. TNN was in the mix for that bit of a time but I felt that I'll back off. I wanted to feud with another team before I call myself just jumping for a title. But there ain't any teams to feud with. The Bruzas come up and down but atleast we had one match. TSF just came back to my knowledge. I'll say it like this... We need more tag teams to make it seem a little bit more interesting because it's all about that title. I used to like the Tag division until season 2. It was just boring to watch and read. I'm sorry

[xwa]

Oct 10, 2009 22:27:11 GMT -5 @van said:

I kind of take offense to this talk about the Tag Team division being dead. To anyone who doesn't know, which you should if you pay any attention, I handle The Burns Brothers, and Finesse's handler is The Mobstaz. Since 2008, we've been the driving force of the Tag Team Division. In fact, the four major teams in the XWA since early 2008 has been The Burns Bros, The Mobstaz, The Strike Force and The Bruzas. All teams that are handled by guys who have prominent singles characters as well. And with our singles characters all being on Overload, and all playing major roles on Overload, the Tag Team division is something we've pretty much decided universally is something we'll work into the mix when opportunity arises. I was supposed to have worked an angle with Shake & Quake, but the handler upped and vanished before they even made so much of challenge post. Their have been 4 total Tag Team title matches this year. The 1st defense by The Mobstaz, the match where The Burns Brothers won it back, and they've defended it 2 times since, a rematch against The Mobstaz, and at Ring Rage against TSF. So I don't see where anyone can come off saying nothing is happening in the Tag Team division. Maybe if people actually paid attention to what happens outside of their own lil' IC worlds, they'd see otherwise.

I hate to sound resentful, but it irks me to see people talking about what's not being done, when they're not contributing. Me, Finesse, Hungrywolf (O'Dell) and Yin (Jasta) have held the Tag Team Division afloat for more then a year and a half. Yet other teams come and go before you even see what the hell they look like. Did you, Myke, not bring a Tag Team into XWA in 2008? Anyone remember the l33t Haxxors? Yea, I barely remember them, too. Because they wrestled one match, then went MIA. Then you had teams like The Main Effects, who like Shake & Quake and so many other teams, didn't even bother showing up. Point of the matter is as far as the Tag Team Division goes, don't try to analyze what you don't even have a hand in. If you actually contributed anything to the division, then maybe I'd sympathize. But for over a year and a half, it's been four handlers keep the Division relevant. And we do a damn good job at it. It's not our fault if everyone's so caught up in their own stuff that they don't see us do what we do.

My apologies to you Van, I was not aiming this at any one efed directly, but more as a whole. I know generalizations are dangerous. I know that you and other handlers did keep the tag team division afloat. And yes, I did bring in a tag team, but to my defense ( not so much ) they faded away. 2008 was a BAD year for me, rp wise. I was burnt out plus I was heavy into WoW. I didn't wanna admit it back then, but I can now. I know I didn't contribute much the last two years. I also know that I keep saying that I am going to and produce nothing. It's one reason why a lot of people here in XWA probably won't work with me, because they know I tend to flake out. I have no one to blame for that but myself. 2010 is going to be different. I'm bring in the Xaviers to the XWA tag division and Sebastian will be back in the singles division. Both will be rp'd well and consistently, unlike my last number of attempts.

And to be honest, I've been so fuckin' lazy about reading threads. I should of been doing it from the start back in 2007, but I really haven't. I try to stick with it, but then I get lazy. It's one reason of why I probably didn't realize it at first about 2008 and the tag division for XWA.

I'm not sure how the XWA Tag division did in 2009, I hope it did well.

Again though, I'm looking at this from a whole, not just at any one fed in particular.

[gallas]

With regards to the Tag Team Division:

My thoughts on it lie in the same direction as Van's. The only way it will ever grow is when people bring in new teams and ideas, and STICK to them. To many times have we seen people bring in new teams and have them fade out faster then they came in. And I mean bring in new teams, and WORK at them. 1 or 2 matches isn't going to be enough to even get you close to being a Tag Title contender. You need to show consistency ABOVE what a singles character needs to show.

With regards to the topic as a whole:

There's only one sure fire way any of the titles of XWA will ever be "more" is by them becoming more then trophy pieces, and more like actual titles. As in items that actually matter. The titles need to matter. And the only way that will happen is exactly as 3X said, the "major" characters taking shots for those belts, and the up and coming characters being pushed into the main stage. That's what I did in booking all of the people in The Crucibal Matches. All of them were guys who have never held a title, some who have never even had a title shot. Using the titles in actual angles, and I mean LONG standing angles will obviously mean less chances for people to win titles, but when you think of it, how many times to multiple people get shots in real life? They need to be tools used to push/build characters, not just a trophy for being good for a period of time. This would mean that title chances will come few and far between, and it would also mean that title matches will be scripted to fit gist of the angle, but it's an obvious necessity for making the belts more then just trophies. They should be used to push characters, not used to make them look "higher up the food chain" then the rest of the roster, especially in the case of the World & Diamond Titles.

[hc]

Before I say what I have to say, I want to state that the following is not a dig at anyone specifically, it's what I have seen be the trend for titles, namely World Title since I joined XWA.




The problem as I see it is HOW the titles are used. Just like Oz stated, they're used merely as trophies for good role playing, and not tools to improve role playing, or push lesser know characters into the limelight. Further more, it's always the same people we see in the title matches. Namely the World and Diamond Titles. You've got characters like O'Dell and Ashley, who haven't been near the platinum titles since they lost them back in 2007, then you have characters like Robby Sylk and Jamie Fury who have had or is getting two shots at the titles. And then to cap it off, you have handlers who have had multiple characters go for the titles. Like how the last two World Champs before Tryton was Sylk then STE, both handled by the same person. Then, we look at how many times some belts have changed owners. You have a title like the Pure Title, which since Kayn lost it, changed hands 4 times (MVS, Romeo Davis, Chris Dynamite, Blade Myers) and has changed hands 13 total times since it's creation, and that's INCLUDING Kayn's Streak. The World Title's only changed hands 11 times, and three times, it's been a character with more then one reign. Anyone else see something wrong here? The Pure Title was held by one character for a 10 defenses, and still has changed hands more then the World Title has. And double how many times the Diamond and Pearl Titles changed hands. And these are all the "Senior" belts that have existed since 2007. I don't count the National Title because all the champions that held it, held it for more then one defense aside from Primo. That to me is a big problem. The Pure Title has changed hands more times then all the other senior belts, despite having been held by one character for 10 defenses.

Now you can make the argument that the World Title is supposed to be upheld for the best of the best. But how's anyone going to raise up in the ranks when we're seeing the same characters in the World Title picture? Scott O'Dell won the title twice, but the 2nd time was when it was vacated, by way of a Battle Royal, so that was a crapshot. But you have two other characters that have two Title reigns, XXL and Robby Sylk. Yes, you obviously have a rematch when you lose the title, but c'mon...you know there's only 9-10 months in the season. You win the title, lose it, use up your rematch, the guy the loses it uses up his rematch afterwards, and that's 3 whole months gone. Yes, you have a rematch, but there are other people waiting for their shot. And that's not to say your guy can't work his way into Devil's Night or the XGames main event, so it's not like you won't get another shot at the title. And maybe you shouldn't. There are other belts to contend for. You don't even need a belt if you're character's good enough. O'Dell hasn't held a championship since 2007, and he's widely regarded as one of the top 5 characters in the fed, and the top heel character. And that's without a championship of any kind, in over 3 years.

The main thing that will improve the title situation in XWA is one simple thing...accessibility. Yes, 3X said that the gold titles are open to anyone. So why is it that the big names don't go for them? And why is it that the Platinum belts always have to have rematches evoked for them, knowing that one on one shots are sparse at best? I personally think if you lose a World Title match as champion, instead of a rematch, you should be given a spot into one of the big PPV main events instead, so you do have a chance to at least get the belt back at Devil's Night or XGames. In the case of a champion winning a title, then losing it the very month after, that's the only instance I'd personally grant a rematch. If you win a belt, defend it once, then lose it, that's it. You take a place at the back of the line, and throw your name into the hat of one of the specialty main events. If you defend it more then once, good for you. But there's no reason why titles, namely the World & Diamond titles should have such a small grid of competition, especially in the World Title's case, there's more then enough talent to have a different guy vying for it every month.

[punch]

Oct 11, 2009 5:41:36 GMT -5 @hc said:

The main thing that will improve the title situation in XWA is one simple thing...accessibility. Yes, 3X said that the gold titles are open to anyone. So why is it that the big names don't go for them? And why is it that the Platinum belts always have to have rematches evoked for them, knowing that one on one shots are sparse at best? I personally think if you lose a World Title match as champion, instead of a rematch, you should be given a spot into one of the big PPV main events instead, so you do have a chance to at least get the belt back at Devil's Night or XGames. In the case of a champion winning a title, then losing it the very month after, that's the only instance I'd personally grant a rematch. If you win a belt, defend it once, then lose it, that's it. You take a place at the back of the line, and throw your name into the hat of one of the specialty main events. If you defend it more then once, good for you. But there's no reason why titles, namely the World & Diamond titles should have such a small grid of competition, especially in the World Title's case, there's more then enough talent to have a different guy vying for it every month.

Greatest statement ever made. XWA does this, more characters start rising up the ranks, and it'll almost force people into going for gold and not platinum, because once you get your World/Diamond title shot, you're done for the year aside from potentially getting into the The Crucibal (Which I assume will be the Championship Scramble next year) The Devil's Playground and The Last Dance/Diamond Conflict. Meanwhile, we get more then 4 guys vying for the World Title in a season, and we start seeing some the so called "Main Eventers" having to work with the up and comers because they can't sit on Title shots all season.

[epic]

Could always consolidate a few belts too, if some of the ones that are there to garner interest and mean more than divisional belts aren't garnering the attention. I went through this same problem in my fed for the past two years, with everyone doing "storylines over titles" but ignoring the realism that you're a wrestler here to win the gold, make more money, and make yourself more of a star, instead of flounder around in the low card / edge of irrelevance.

Could always do a ladder system like VWE if you can manage to make it not seem impossible for noobs to climb it and advance (which it entirely wasn't back in those days... two of my CAWs did it relatively easily).

And, in good news, I was actually looking at doing a title shot @ XG3, and anybody who knows who I am knows that I have a little reputation for paying attention to the gold that I have, and what I'll try to pull if I win it/chase it... even if the Genesis feud hasn't had as much RPing toward it as I normally do (insanely busy IRL).

[Thr33XWA]

Oct 11, 2009 5:41:36 GMT -5 @hc said:

Before I say what I have to say, I want to state that the following is not a dig at anyone specifically, it's what I have seen be the trend for titles, namely World Title since I joined XWA.




The problem as I see it is HOW the titles are used. Just like Oz stated, they're used merely as trophies for good role playing, and not tools to improve role playing, or push lesser know characters into the limelight. Further more, it's always the same people we see in the title matches. Namely the World and Diamond Titles. You've got characters like O'Dell and Ashley, who haven't been near the platinum titles since they lost them back in 2007, then you have characters like Robby Sylk and Jamie Fury who have had or is getting two shots at the titles. And then to cap it off, you have handlers who have had multiple characters go for the titles. Like how the last two World Champs before Tryton was Sylk then STE, both handled by the same person. Then, we look at how many times some belts have changed owners. You have a title like the Pure Title, which since Kayn lost it, changed hands 4 times (MVS, Romeo Davis, Chris Dynamite, Blade Myers) and has changed hands 13 total times since it's creation, and that's INCLUDING Kayn's Streak. The World Title's only changed hands 11 times, and three times, it's been a character with more then one reign. Anyone else see something wrong here? The Pure Title was held by one character for a 10 defenses, and still has changed hands more then the World Title has. And double how many times the Diamond and Pearl Titles changed hands. And these are all the "Senior" belts that have existed since 2007. I don't count the National Title because all the champions that held it, held it for more then one defense aside from Primo. That to me is a big problem. The Pure Title has changed hands more times then all the other senior belts, despite having been held by one character for 10 defenses.

Now you can make the argument that the World Title is supposed to be upheld for the best of the best. But how's anyone going to raise up in the ranks when we're seeing the same characters in the World Title picture? Scott O'Dell won the title twice, but the 2nd time was when it was vacated, by way of a Battle Royal, so that was a crapshot. But you have two other characters that have two Title reigns, XXL and Robby Sylk. Yes, you obviously have a rematch when you lose the title, but c'mon...you know there's only 9-10 months in the season. You win the title, lose it, use up your rematch, the guy the loses it uses up his rematch afterwards, and that's 3 whole months gone. Yes, you have a rematch, but there are other people waiting for their shot. And that's not to say your guy can't work his way into Devil's Night or the XGames main event, so it's not like you won't get another shot at the title. And maybe you shouldn't. There are other belts to contend for. You don't even need a belt if you're character's good enough. O'Dell hasn't held a championship since 2007, and he's widely regarded as one of the top 5 characters in the fed, and the top heel character. And that's without a championship of any kind, in over 3 years.

The main thing that will improve the title situation in XWA is one simple thing...accessibility. Yes, 3X said that the gold titles are open to anyone. So why is it that the big names don't go for them? And why is it that the Platinum belts always have to have rematches evoked for them, knowing that one on one shots are sparse at best? I personally think if you lose a World Title match as champion, instead of a rematch, you should be given a spot into one of the big PPV main events instead, so you do have a chance to at least get the belt back at Devil's Night or XGames. In the case of a champion winning a title, then losing it the very month after, that's the only instance I'd personally grant a rematch. If you win a belt, defend it once, then lose it, that's it. You take a place at the back of the line, and throw your name into the hat of one of the specialty main events. If you defend it more then once, good for you. But there's no reason why titles, namely the World & Diamond titles should have such a small grid of competition, especially in the World Title's case, there's more then enough talent to have a different guy vying for it every month.

In regards to the Platinum Titles, that is exactly the reason why have made the Gold Titles 100% accessible to members who choose to go for them. The Platinum Belts are not contested in the same frequency as the others, so instead of people "waiting for their chance" they should be going for what they can go for. In all truth, nobody gets a "chance" for the Platinum Belts at all...they are chosen based on their activity in months prior.

In any and all cases that there have been multiple contenders for ANY belt, we've had longstanding rules in place so that all parties get a shot in as timely a manner as possible (look up the Multi-Man rule). Not to sound confrontational but, anyone who complains about not getting an opportunity needs to be upset at themselves for not asking for one. If you read through all the guidelines, you'd know that we have a whole lot of special exceptions, and can just as easily make them for anyone who asks us. It's not the admin's job to take initiative for you.

Only now in Year 3 do we have a respectable group of individuals who are Platinum Title contenders. That's because the level of consistency has risen from the past two years to where now he have to grind just to figure out who should get the opportunities. Just like actual wrestling though, not everyone is going to get opportunities all of the time. Those who have said opportunities and rematches and so forth earn the right to have them, as privilege for the work they've done. Truth be told, the majority of handlers who've lost the World Title during the season in the XWA have chosen to use their rematch to go into the Devil's Playground instead of a straight rematch, so it sounds an awful lot like you're just complaining when you really have no reason to do so.

The bottom line is that all variables and situations in that respect are taken in account when there's a need for it to be so. The ideas you have come up with however could just as easily be amended into the rulings we have in place already, but like all things...what do you really expect to be done if you only speak up after someone else does? Furthermore, before you start dropping names and making comparisons, get all of the facts first.

@epic- A ladder system has been something that I've thought about since XWA started. It's just a matter of making it work with as large a grid as XWA has of personnel compared to what VWE had. That's really the only reason we never implemented it.

[xwa]

Lets try to not have boiling heads and such. I Don't wanna have to lock this thread when we're having a good discussion.

[epic]

I's boilin teh rite thingz

@epic- A ladder system has been something that I've thought about since XWA started. It's just a matter of making it work with as large a grid as XWA has of personnel compared to what VWE had. That's really the only reason we never implemented it.

Is it a possibility going forward with the next-gen roster limitations or will the 50 caw limit just be something to laugh at, especially after limiting intergender?