Diamond Discussion

[Carmella Blackheart]

Before I begin, I'll say it right off the bat that in my opinion I'm proud of what the Diamond Division has become. Names have come and gone, but going into the 2009 season I'm confident that the Division will continue to be as successful and entertaining as it's been. About the only thing that I would "suggest" is that there be less of "why I'm better than anyone" and more of "why I'm going to beat my opponent".

Aside from that, if you have any suggestions yourself concerning the Diamond Division, this is where you can voice them. Please note that I said suggestions and not opinions. I don't want to know what you think, I want to know what you think would be good for the Diamond Division. Match types, character wise, whatever.

Speak now, or forever hold your peace.

[kimmy]

I have so much to say.....this is a great thread

As far as what you said about the best way to put it "put downs" I completely agree. It's very childish and immature, with that being said I know that's one thing that will improve our division if we act like equals and not like some of us are the best of the best.

Match types, I just want to see a lot more variety thrown in, right now the matches and by that I mean the only ones used consistantly are singles, tag team, cage, and if there's some I can't think of thats my fault sorry.

I wanna see us as Diamonds throw in some Ladder, TLC, FCA, Table, Extreme Rules sorts of matches.......and have Elimination Tag matches.

I know some of those match types are very, not suited to females, but in female against female competition I KNOW there's a lot of tough girls in real wrestling that can pull that kinda stuff.

I'm sure I'll come up with other stuff too......

[Channelle Valencia]

Seeing as I'm the new #1 Heel of the Diamond Division ;D I have to say that put downs are going to happen, whenever it makes sense to do them. Me, I always focus on what's in front of me. What I see from other Diamonds a lot is generalization of what they think is "wrong" with the Division or how they stand above everyone else. As far as I see it, the beauty queens are going to be beauty queens, the tough chicks are going to be tough chicks, etc., etc., etc., so people need to stop being prudish and accept the fact that not everyone is going to using their characters the way that one specific person wants everyone to act.

I'll use anyone who has a problem with "Diva" behavior for example. I've had enough of hearing that women like that are not "real" wrestlers for one. If someone like Amber wants to sass it up and have some sex appeal, that doesn't take away from the fact that she's a competitor, and it would be nice if people realize that. If you can't come up with something aside from general points about a character, then you're not really roleplaying, you're just critiquing.

I can spit venom if I have to, but it's always going to be right at the target, whoever is challenging me right then and there. If I'm not working with anyone else, then what they do or how they act is no business of my character's at that point. I'll read up on things from others, more for being entertained or for points if I do happen to cross paths with them, but as far as Channelle goes, she's not worried about anyone but herself. The "crusaders" need to focus on their own characters and make their efforts more about their characters and not about commenting on other people's characters.

If that's "part of your character", then you don't have a strong one. I know I'm not the only one who sees this. To make it sound less like an opinion, what I suggest is that maybe staff steps in and makes critiques about a person's roleplaying style-in private of course. I know people will think of themselves to be good RPers, but just because you have great grammar and some clever lines here and there doesn't make you great. In some cases I just don't think that people see what they're doing and what needs a little improving here and there. That's something that I think may need to be addressed on a person to person level.

I for one know the caliber of character that 3X is looking for, because it was told to me when he gave me Channelle. I think that maybe there should be some more specific Character Guidelines set for 2009. Not so much what you can do, but how to do it in a more creative way.

[willow]

Ladder matches are... Something else. Can be fun, can be scary. Especially when you fall from the very top and are slung out across the top rope. Anyway, not in the division myself, but I could definitely see some of the stuff Kimmy mentioned in the division with the likes of Kim herself, Holly Woodz, Marx, Fury, Bull (simply due to the fact of who she's based off), Ina, and a few others. But yeah, Kim's got some good ideas for the division. Nothing wrong with a little bloodshed among women. lol

Edit - Just read Channelle's post.

Very good points about the "diva" = not real wrestler thing. Cause, its simply not true. They can be feminine (I chose not to be) and still kick ass. lol They can be little miss priss, barbie dolled up, and still kick your ass from here to next sunday. XD Good points there ma'am.

[Carmella Blackheart]

Well, we can't really do those type of matches without some storyline to back it up, and that goes a little into what it is that Channelle said. I know exactly who it is that she's talking about without naming any names, but the generalization as she put it of affairs is something that does need to be improved on...a lot. I know which characters have strong rivalries at the moment, and which are just basically going around talking about this or that or the other, and there should be more of one and NONE of the other, quite frankly.

There will be more specific guidelines to what is "XWA Material" roleplay wise and what's just going to get you into Singles matches all year long. Like I said before, the focus had kind of gone away from RPing and more towards having amazing matches in game, and speaking for myself I'm going to see that that changes. Roleplaying will be the key to getting those big matches, and there's going to be a heavy bit of change in expectation in what kind of roleplaying will net those kind of matches. It's not even a matter of consistency, because quality has always outweighed quality in my book. Without naming names, there are those who've developed meaningful rivalries in just a few posts, and those who go on and on, post after post and only end up saying the same thing, or something someone else said.

Better characters=better matches, pure and simple, and sorry to say that some people out there, champion or not, experienced or not, do not have what I call "top-tier" characters. There will be a more conscious effort on my part to help people get to that level.

[hel]

Nov 27, 2008 15:55:23 GMT -5 Channelle Valencia said:

Seeing as I'm the new #1 Heel of the Diamond Division ;D

That right there is the 1st thing that needs to be changed. No one is "Better" then the next person. I for one covet my character as a top class heel. And I do it in a manner that doesn't insult, belittle or put down anyone else. Yet Helena maintains her persona of being a cerebral, calculating manipulator. If everyone got that "I'm the best at..." mentality out of the way, that would open up a whole buch of doors. Not to rile anyone up or ruffle feathers, but that's the reason why certain other Diamonds I know of won't and are not in any rush to even work with some of the others. Because it's the same old song and dance every week. "I'm the best, blah blah blah." It gets real old, real fast. And while said people are doing that, there's no innovation happening. No stories being developed. No character growth what so ever.

I use in prime example my current angle with Ashley. It's the most innovative and unexpected thing to happen the whole year in the entire division. Taking two characters who are night and day, and who before the angle started never even knew each existed, or at the least hadn't interacted, and thrust them into a story where not only does it build a rivalry, but growth for both characters that will span the entire length of their careers. There are literally infinite possibilities as far as where Ashley and I can go with the angle. And we've already pulled in two other characters in Alundra & Michelle, which leaves the potential involvement of the rest of The Black Diamonds, as well as Ashley's friends like Chloe and Sayuri. From one angle leads an an infinite number of possibilities. Aside from us, it hasn't happened at all. The only other note worthy angles I can recall this year are the Ashley vs. Bianca angle that lasted 2 months, and the Sonya/STE/Samson vs. Daffney/The Dooleys angle. Everything else has been just one shot stuff with no real footing or depth.

If the division is going to go forward, the envelope needs to be pushed. Handlers need to let go of that elitist attitude and sacrifice their characters for the greater good. I'm talking backstage assaults, run in interference, love triangles, the works. There's to much cookie cutter stuff happening. No one aside from say Ashley has been willing to throw caution to the wind and do something outside of their comfort zone (I SWEAR Punch said this in a past post). I recall one angle that started between Bianca and Tanden were it all started with Tanden spilling Ice coffee on Bianca. It was hilarious, and it's stemmed into an on going rivalry between the two of them that can go well beyond Devil's Night. We need to see less picking at each other and more innovation. More handlers willing to go outside of the box and work interesting angles. I don't even know what most of the rest of the division is doing because I don't bother reading any of the posts because it's the same old stuff week in and week out. But I bet everyone knows of the Ashley/Helena angle. And why is that? Because it's new, interesting and exciting. Once the rest of the handlers catch on and follow suit, we'll see the Diamond division move to that next plateau.

[willow]

lol, yeah. Obviously. Can't just have a special match for the hell of it, unless its a certain division and all. So, yeah, it definitely makes sense for the matches to be restricted to feud/storyline only, and good storylines/ feuds at that. Wasn't saying just to do em for the heck of it. XD Gotta have a reason. Was just agreeing with Kim on the more "extreme" matches are possible is all. ^.^

[Carmella Blackheart]

I think that I'm probably more inclined to say how many "meaningful rivalries" have come this season than you are Ms. Troy, no offense. All I see is you being guilty of the very thing you just accused Channelle of, claiming that your storyline and the ones you've described as well are groundbreaking.

First of all, they aren't the only ones that exist in the XWA.

Second of all, as I've said many times before anyone who choose not to work with anyone else on ANY grounds aside from a personal issue OOC will be dealt with in the form of not being involved in any specialty matches at all, whether you're in a "groundbreaking" storyline or not. Being involved in something is one thing, but choosing not to work with a character because of their character as Channelle put it shows a LACK of character.

Third of all, not everyone is going to do things the way that you do them, or Bianca or Tanden or anyone else. Nobody needs to "follow suit", because that would imply that you're "leading suit" which would imply that what you're doing is "better" than everyone else's...and that's something that I've caught from you on several occasions. THAT'S what needs to see itself out of the door. Not to put you on the spot, but not only is that which you said a contradiction, it's also one of the very things Channelle said is done by "certain people", thinking that others need to do what they do, how they do it or any semblance of the two.

Going forward, I'll be the one to say how people do what. Do what you do, and if I need to address you on how it's being done, I will. If I say nothing it's all good, so you saying something is unneccessary and personally...unwelcome. Like I said on CAWS.ws, critiques are welcome, critics are not, and I've been around long enough to know the difference.

[Xander Xavier Luther]

I sure as hell aren't going to do something with my characters just because I think that's what others want to see. I do what I want to do with them, what I choose to do with them. Period.

Some characters, I can say without hesitation are "cookie cutter". There's a difference between going out of a comfort zone and doing something that simply doesn't make any sense for that character. Run-ins, backstage brawls, etc., does that make any sense for say The Dixon Sisters for example or for Alexis Valentine? Nope...so to suggest that something like that needs to happen across the board is generalizing things like I never imagined. That would make things a lot less interesting because like Channelle said in the X-Gen thread, the Diamonds are diverse. Besides, all of that's been done before. Even this "unknown family" angle you have with Ashley, no offense Helena. I recall Hornswoggle as one and Dominic Mysterio (I know that's not his real last name, but humor me) as two examples from WWE alone. Pushing the envelope would coming up with something that HASN'T been done before, which is next to impossible in e-feds, wrestling, movies, basically any form of media or entertainment whatsoever, so how about we let people rock how they want to, okay?

I was going to say something towards the comment about no other rivalries not having any "footing or depth", since Marisol's had two of those meaningful feuds I'd say, but I'm not going to make this escalate into something it shouldn't. All I'm going to say for now is that I agree that the "elitist" attitude needs to stop, and that the elitists per se aren't who they think they are. Not by a long shot.

[hel]

If you choose to think I'm touting my angle as being better, that's on you. Because I'm not. Nor has or would anyone else think that. You prerogative. That's not what I implied or even intended. The fact is siad you wanted suggestions as to what everyone thought needed to be done to make the division better, I gave mines. If you choose to see it as anything else then that, once again that's your choice. I'm going to do what I do and continue to contribute as I have. And you'll see the same results every time. Consistency and innovation. I do my "job" and I do it well. And I'll keep on doing it. I'm not "Leading Suit" as you say. I'm leading by example. Maybe if you didn't have such a threatened mentality, you'd see it as that instead of having to protect the integrity of certain members who aren't holding their weight and everyone knows that they aren't. And no, I'm not talking about Channelle, I'm speaking about a number of other Diamonds who will remain un-named. When I say follow suit, I mean as in stepping their game up and as you said "Getting the more conscious effort to help people get to that level." Not just from staff, but from everyone. Last I checked, staff books the matches, The handlers make the matches. The individual handlers need to be held accountable for their lack luster performances, not the division as a whole. You've got some like Stacie and Liberty that have owned up to the fact that they slacked off. But you have more that haven't. Be it personal reasons or just laziness, they've not held their end of the XWA tenure. Those are the people in question here, not me. Me saying something isn't unnecessary. You said in the 1st post "Speak now, or forever hold your peace." That's what I did. If it's not what you wanted to hear, or more likely not what you liked to see, oh well. It's what I had to say, and I said it. Like anything anyone else will say after this, and what was said before my 1st post, it's what we feel needs to be done to make the division improve, positive or negative. That'll be all I have to say in this. The handlers need to spot playing it safe and start innovating instead of procrastinating.

[ss]

I just love bringing Sireena in, interacting with Hayley & Warfield, having them both talk her up on her ability and talent, and then when I sit there and call every single diamond out, wait a week, get no response, call them all on "being in the same room with a tv" and STILL get no reply for another week, is.. well.. WEAK! Yes, Sarah Warfield addressed the situation and rewarded the character a spot in Girl Fight, yes that lead to the Liberty match for Devils Night, but it exposed the rest of the Diamonds NOT in something right now, for sticking to their circle of preferred handlers.

I'm nothing special, nobody of importance. So yeah, ignore me, I don't care about that. When I see those same handlers saying everyone needs to interact with everyone, it makes me laugh. Not a chuckle, not a giggle, a knee slapping LAUGH, because they made themselves out to be hypocrites. I'm one aswell, but more on that later lol.

Now, since Sireena came here (used to be in LXW successfully) I've interacted with Staci, got a match, Hayley Jonas, turned into a 3-way with Staci for continuity, then Hayley 1 on 1. Went out on a limb and tossed a cookie into the jar for something BIG with Anjelyka later Got the praise of Hayley and Sarah Warfield, got rewarded for my talent/ability and now into something with Liberty which can stretch forward.

=

A month of being here and already interacted with or fought 5 Diamonds compared to a few handlers who stuck to 1 Diamond. I'm not saying ^THIS^ is what NEEDS to be done by more people, but it's the idea that should be in peoples heads going into 09. Don't stick to a feud for your posts. Head out, interact, talk to people, start a feud, incite a new feud for down the road, bring someone else into your squabble, form a team, make a friend, piss someone off, get on someones good side, kiss some ass, do your makeup, shake your tailfeather...

ANYTHING is better then nothing, and as it relates to Diamonds and matches.. yeah, anything over and above the norm is great to have. I agree though, the feud needs to dictate the direction towards a bigger match. BUT with hacks, we can alter and create diff matches for us.

Loser shaves her head? A gimmick altering match right there

Contract above the ring allowing creative control for the character for an alloted time? A good reason for a ladder match

Let's focus on what we have, and make the most of it. Add some spin of creativity and we got an interesting division that doesn't need a table, or a kendo stick, to be interesting. HELL, I'd toss Sireena into a loser wrestles in their Bra & Panties for a month match lol. We just ALL need to be open to new ideas and other people then what we're used to.

[punch]

Nov 27, 2008 16:24:02 GMT -5 @hel said:

Nov 27, 2008 15:55:23 GMT -5 Channelle Valencia said:

Seeing as I'm the new #1 Heel of the Diamond Division ;D

That right there is the 1st thing that needs to be changed. No one is "Better" then the next person. I for one covet my character as a top class heel. And I do it in a manner that doesn't insult, belittle or put down anyone else. Yet Helena maintains her persona of being a cerebral, calculating manipulator. If everyone got that "I'm the best at..." mentality out of the way, that would open up a whole buch of doors. Not to rile anyone up or ruffle feathers, but that's the reason why certain other Diamonds I know of won't and are not in any rush to even work with some of the others. Because it's the same old song and dance every week. "I'm the best, blah blah blah." It gets real old, real fast. And while said people are doing that, there's no innovation happening. No stories being developed. No character growth what so ever.

I use in prime example my current angle with Ashley. It's the most innovative and unexpected thing to happen the whole year in the entire division. Taking two characters who are night and day, and who before the angle started never even knew each existed, or at the least hadn't interacted, and thrust them into a story where not only does it build a rivalry, but growth for both characters that will span the entire length of their careers. There are literally infinite possibilities as far as where Ashley and I can go with the angle. And we've already pulled in two other characters in Alundra & Michelle, which leaves the potential involvement of the rest of The Black Diamonds, as well as Ashley's friends like Chloe and Sayuri. From one angle leads an an infinite number of possibilities. Aside from us, it hasn't happened at all. The only other note worthy angles I can recall this year are the Ashley vs. Bianca angle that lasted 2 months, and the Sonya/STE/Samson vs. Daffney/The Dooleys angle. Everything else has been just one shot stuff with no real footing or depth.

If the division is going to go forward, the envelope needs to be pushed. Handlers need to let go of that elitist attitude and sacrifice their characters for the greater good. I'm talking backstage assaults, run in interference, love triangles, the works. There's to much cookie cutter stuff happening. No one aside from say Ashley has been willing to throw caution to the wind and do something outside of their comfort zone (I SWEAR Punch said this in a past post). I recall one angle that started between Bianca and Tanden were it all started with Tanden spilling Ice coffee on Bianca. It was hilarious, and it's stemmed into an on going rivalry between the two of them that can go well beyond Devil's Night. We need to see less picking at each other and more innovation. More handlers willing to go outside of the box and work interesting angles. I don't even know what most of the rest of the division is doing because I don't bother reading any of the posts because it's the same old stuff week in and week out. But I bet everyone knows of the Ashley/Helena angle. And why is that? Because it's new, interesting and exciting. Once the rest of the handlers catch on and follow suit, we'll see the Diamond division move to that next plateau.

Quoted for truth. And I did say that in a past post...













...About the Diamond Division. Nice to see I'm not the only one who thinks that way. Innovation breeds creativity. Creativity breeds interest. Interest breeds exposure. Notice a pattern here? Compared to 2007, no offense...the 2008 Diamond Division SUCKED. In 2007, you had Ashley dominating, you had Bianca manipulating, you had Sumya pissing everyone off, you had Kristin making everyone laugh, you had the fierceness of Heather, the fearlessness of Chloe and the vivaciousness of Amber. 2008? You've got Ashley, you've got Bianca, you've got Jamie. That's it. Those are who I'd call the "Big Three" of the Diamond Division. They've worked hard, and consistently from the 1st show to now. (Not counting you Helena, or say Alundra or Alexis or Tiffany, as you all came in towards at mid-season). As far as the females who started at the season premiere and will finish at X-Games, those are the three who have laid it down show after show after show with no breaks. Hell, Ashley's been in storylines the WHOLE SEASON. One after the other after the other. If she can do it, what the hell is stopping the rest of you? How long is the season...10 months? And one handler out of like 18-20 can find angles consistently from start to finish, the present one she's in probably being the best angle in the division since it's creation.

There's a problem with that.

Oz and I talk about this constantly. The fact that no one is willing to put the work in to come up with something new. Everything I've read so far has just be re-hashes of old material. The same stuff you read in every other fed, just with different names attached to them. What the Diamond Division truly needs, at least in my opinion is and identity. The handlers need to really re-evaluate their stances and come up with something different. There are a few character who have further evolved, but the division as a whole has stood still, while the rest of the league has progressed. To counter XXL's post, run ins and so on WOULD fit, in the context of a storyline. Keyword "STORYLINE". Damn rivalries. We need storylines in the division. Angles. Stuff with plots, drama and intrigue. Not "I challenge you, I except, insert witty one liner here, repeat, end post". That's what Helena's saying, and I couldn't agree more. There have and still are plenty of meaningful rivalries. But how many stories are there happening right now? One. There lies the dilemma. Anyone who takes what she said as something negative or anything out of the context of what it is in plain, white Verdana text needs to re-think their stance in XWA, and in E-Feds in general. Because if you're not even going to make the attempt to even try to progress and make your character more then what it is, even if it means doing something unconventional to the character, why even bother logging in? The guys do it all the time. O'Dell does it ever week. I do it every time I post. Hell, Brandon Payne did it, look where it got him? And he sat out for a whole month. What makes the Diamonds any different or special?

[kimmy]

Okay I'll weigh in again, yes I am aware of the fact that not all of the matches that I listed in my first post of the thread can be used all the time. Yes they are more specialty matches, totally understandable and therefore should only be used in certain situations. Yet the idea is I wanted to bring a more extreme, more unique edge to this division.

Now as far as storylines go, I've always agreed that there needs to be more storylines in our division. I'm open to always doing storylines BUT contradictory to the fact that everyone thinks that it's so easy to throw off the cuff storylines with people when other people that you try to get something going with, just don't try or are busy or don't want too. Yes there are tons of storylines that need to get going to make this division great.

Speaking of storylines, Punchy, to say there's a big 3 or a top 3 or whatnot, but do you know what I've seen, despite the storylines....they tended to either roleplay amongst themselves or if they went outside it was good but it was only with certain people for short amounts of time. I know I'm gonna get thrashed at for saying that, but please take it as is.

[gallas]

On one hand, I will agree that the Diamond Division needs some sort of shake up to happen for interest to rise and activity to grow. HOWEVER, Thr33x and I are the only, repeat ONLY people in XWA who can, or ever will dictate what is consider productive activity, or activity in general. No two people take to the same type of role playing, though everyone...and I do mean EVERYONE does follow different styles. (I myself fashion my role playing in the same light and style as Lionheart, as he's pretty much the guy who showed me the ropes back in WTF.) The longer you RP with a set amount of people, the more you become accustomed to that format of RPing. And to expect people to all of a sudden go another direction is a bit unrealistic. That's like asking a Football team that runs the Spread Offense to all of a sudden use the West Coast Offense. Some can, most can't, but a majority WON'T, because it's not what they do.

I myself don't hold anyone's work over the next person. 3X shares that same ideal. So long as what you're producing is interesting, and readable, we take a hands off approach. Always have, always will. But WE decide what is considered active or inactive. Though we look at different areas, we both base our ideals on consistency. You material doesn't need to be epic, it just needs to be interesting. There is no such thing as a "new" angle. It's ALL re-hashes of stuff done before in wrestling. Be it in a fed or in real life. It's how the handlers execute their interpretation of said story/angle that matters. If you're putting in the effort, that's all we care about. Not the who, or the where or the why. Only the what. Myke said it best, "Let's work with what we have". I'll tell you now that we will not be adding many more characters to XWA in 2009. Only the select few that have been waiting in the wings to join, and a few other committed handlers that both 3X and I have scouted out. And very...VERY few of them will be handling Diamonds. So the grid will look reasonably the same for 2009 as it is for 2008. So what you, the Diamond Handlers need to do most of all is pool in together and figure out what YOU want the Division to become. I see the demand for more extreme style matches. But as 3X said, we'd need the right personnel for that. As of this writing, the following Diamonds fit that bill:

Holly Woodz
Hayley Joans
Kim Hunter
Anjleyka
Roze
Sireena
Sara Beck

Think there's much of a demand for it when only 7 out of 22 Diamonds can even hold their own in Extreme style matches? No. If by chance we see some more aggressive Diamonds emerge from the pack, we'll see more of those brutal fights reserved for the men given to females. But AGAIN as 3X said, Storylines will dictate availability. The Specialty match rule I came up with goes the same for men AND women. If you want it, put in the work and you'll get it. Don't worry about what the next person is or isn;t doing. Worry about your own ass, and you'll be fine. And the Diamond Division will be fine as well.

I'll agree with Punch that as a whole the 2008 Diamond Division didn't live up to what it did in 2007. Granted what we had in 07 was a VERY hard act to follow, but we...that being 3X and myself expect our established vets to continue doing what they do, and we expect the new comers and the slow starters to pick up the pace. The recipe for success is simple...

"Do what you do. Not what everyone else does."

3X and I will take care of those not pulling their weight. Everyone else need to just focus on what they bring to the table. Don't try and be Ms. Everything. Do what is in the context of your character to do, and all will fall into place.

[kimmy]

There you go makin sense again Oz, I like it as usual straightforward and honest, good point.

My only question is of those 7 of us you consider eligable, would we ever be able to pull off those types of wicked extreme matches every once in awhile ??