Vault
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Post by Vault on May 6, 2010 12:25:15 GMT -5
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Osiris
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Post by Osiris on May 6, 2010 23:03:33 GMT -5
I find it quite funny that he thinks this show is designed to piss him off, when at the same time this guy seems tailor made to piss ME off. I'll give you a rundown of each argument I have as I was this.
First and foremost, am I really to believe this guy knows more then the experts themselves, or the very people who went through the training like the Spetnaz guy? I REALLY don't think so. Like the doctor, Spoony here says he's just there to say "He's dead" and that even an average human could tell that. There have been plenty of times where I thought someone was dead when in fact they survived, most recently in the James/Capone fight.
He brings up the point of there is never just one of certain groups, like Apache and Ninjas. Fair point, but on the other hand I find it hard to believe that there was never an instance where there was only one of a group. Or that they always fought in groups. Majority, yes, I ain't going to argue that fact. But never? No, I doubt it.
The part about the landscape preference sounds like a valid point at first, but it's not. We bring the landscape into the equation, someone is getting screwed. His example being a pirate fights on a pirate ship. Okay, so when we put the knight on the ship, the knight is pretty much fucked because he doesn't have sea legs.
When he brings up fighting styles, how those are never brought in, I remember instantly they just did that in Alexander the great, even bringing in a MMA fighter of who uses the modern style. Was he just not paying attention or what?
And boy, he really does not pay attention to this show at all, because when they test the weapons, you have experts in that weapon, not some average joe. Why? So we can test the weapon handled by an expert, because those people they are representing are experts with the weapons themselves, so we want experts handling those weapons to get the most accurate results. I'm hesitant to continue for the sake of my sanity.
It was IRA vs Spetnaz when they did the "maze" thing numbskull. If you're trying to argue your point, you need to at least use what actually happened, not what you think happened.
*Sigh* Oy vey, he's complaining about a nail bomb vs grenade test, and says their not consistent. Yeah, no shit Sherlock, because that particular instance was from the Back for Blood special and they compared footage from DIFFERENT EPISODES. So no fucking duh they wouldn't be consistent.
Oh geez. Yes, we know the tazer isn't really lethal. But if you even look at the title of the show, the DEADLIEST Warrior, you'd probably get the idea of what they are going for. They even brought that up during the show, basically summed up this is the DEADLIEST Warrior, not the I can knock you down, distract you warrior.
Switchblade did not beat the Bowie Knife simply because it was concealable. It won because it was smaller, and as such could get in between ribs and other things while the Bowie Knife would have to go through them. This guy doesn't even pay attention.
It was Attila the Hun that took on Alexander the Great, NOT fucking Genghis Khan! God freaking dammit.
So according to this guy, the crossbow was revolutionary in medieval times. Yet we're talking about someone using this weapon (Alexander the Great) who was WAY before that time period. I'm starting to get a headache over here.
The Ballista was not matched up with the lasso, it was matched up with the Scythian Axe. I can't take anyone seriously when they can't even get the facts straight.
Take the advice that he said for this show, which is skip to the end, and apply it to this video. Because that's the only thing that didn't cause me to yell at the screen or produce a headache.
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Bou
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Post by Bou on May 6, 2010 23:16:33 GMT -5
I have one thing to say about this show: It insulted my intelligence. Spoony is right in this case, in my opinion. horrible show.
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Vault
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Post by Vault on May 7, 2010 0:00:01 GMT -5
Both Spoony and his brother brought up a lot of valid points, I like Deadliest Warrior BUT the science is VERY bad. It's trash science. they don't even follow the scientific method for Christ's sake. You know, Observe, Test, Repeat simple elementary school stuff. If your gonna test two different things they both need the EXACT same variables. Junk Science in, Junk Science out.
FYI They did the maze several times actually, and both times the data was flawed. If you want to test a weapon's accuracy use the traditional and STANDARD testing method for it. Shoot it in a range and test it's grouping, the tighter the grouping, the more accurate the weapon.
The show is called Deadliest WARRIOR not Deadliest WEAPON, so yes, tactics should have an equal weight to weapons, but the show is just about weapons. Apache warriors NEVER attacked one on one, they ambushed their enemies and used guerrilla tactics. Ninja NEVER attacked in broad daylight OR head on, their weapons were mostly old farm tools or were converted Samurai weapons. So they had to use stealth, and attack when it was least suspected.
The crossbow was a revolutionary weapon, it has it's roots all the way back in ancient China, It's most famous use was in Medival times though. I have not seen that episode but it is likely that Alexander did have access to the Greek version of the weapon.
About the LTL{Less Then Lethal} weapons, if the show is about being deadly why did they test weapons DESIGNED NOT TO KILL? Then bitch about them not being lethal? Seems mighty dumb to me.
About the Bowie Knife vs Switchblade, Every other time they sided with brute force and this ONE TIME they side with the one that has both less utility and power. You can go between the ribs with almost any knife, just turn it sideways and stab in an upward angle. Even if it had to go through bone, it wouldn't have much of a problem because the Bowie Knife is a quite heavy knife.
Before you side blindly with the show, do some independent research and you will found how how many flaws this show has.
BTW, lay off the Ad Homenum attacks.
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Post by punch on May 7, 2010 15:13:55 GMT -5
Copied and pasted from comments: If you're watching Deadliest Warrior for it's in depth scientific research, you need to get a back message from a wheat tiller. The show's meant to entertain, and that's what it does. I could say the same thing he said about DW about a show like 24. Is anything that happens on 24 even remotely close to something accurate or believable? Hell no. But it's entertaining as hell, and that's why millions of people watch it. So what if the science is flawed. So what if their prognosis needs a little work on certain aspects. That's not why people watch. They watch to be entertained. If you need hard scientific evidence behind a weapon's function...there's a solution for you. It's called the Military Channel. Watch that and leave DW to the people who watch it for it's sole purpose, entertainment. It's like expecting groundbreaking, Emmy award caliber acting on a WWE show. It ain't happening, so enjoy it for what it is, or shut the hell up. Pissing and moaning about it only makes you look like more of a fail induced loser then you already are.  -------- Like a good friend of mines says numerous times (You'll be able to tell who) "Opinions are like armpits and assholes. Everyone has them, and at any given moment they can stink to high hell." They've got freedom of speech to pan the show for his less then compelling reasons, I've got freedom of speech to call them out for being primadonnas and not "getting" the show. And that goes for anyone who agrees with their empty points. If you need accuracy with your science, why the hell are you watching DW? Go watch NatGeo or something. DW is a show meant to entertain, and that's what it does. If it doesn't entertain you, don't watch it. Don't comment on it. Don't make empty headed posts forcing your needless opinion of the show down someone's throat. And no, I'm not siding blindly with the show, I'm siding with logic. Could they make the show more scientifically accurate? Hell yea. But it's not a science show. It's on Spike for crying out loud, do you really expect something educational or accurate from a Spike original series? Uhm...no. Watch it and be entertained, or don't watch it because it's inaccuracy puts you off. But I think I speak on behalf of many who have most likely chosen not to chime in that...well...we could give a rats ass what those two tools and anyone who shares their saddlebrained opinions think. They're making money off the show. You're making yourself look like an idiot complaining about it. Who's wins that fight I wonder? |
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Vault
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Post by Vault on May 7, 2010 16:04:22 GMT -5
You're really gonna pull the "IF you don't agree with us, shut up card?" Only fucking idiots or those that are incredibly ignorant pull that card. PERIOD! Their points are not empty, sure he got a couple of things wrong but he did this on the fly for almost an hour. You know, GOD FORBID a show using science to determine who the deadliest warrior is use the basis for all science and experimentation the Scientific Method. I don't care if the show is on Spike TV, it could be on Nick Jr for all I care and if it is using science I expect them to use it correctly. Don't half ass it, if you're gonna do an experiment comparing two weapons DO IT CORRECTLY!!! The show does entertain me, like the Mythbusters does, but AT LEAST the Mythbusters does in fact follow the scientific method and hold the variables for each test to the same standards when they need too. Just because it entertains me and it's on Spike TV doesn't mean it gets a free pass. Shows like 24 do, BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING FICTION!!! It's not real, they can play with reality a little bit, Deadliest Warrior can't. Judging from how both of you reacted to his opinion, I think this gif is applicable here.  |
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Osiris
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Post by Osiris on May 7, 2010 20:34:26 GMT -5
FYI They did the maze several times actually. This is true, but the reason I brought it up was he was not getting the correct information out there. It's a pet peeve of mine that people will make claims when the facts they present are not correct at all. He was passing one maze off as another. The show is called Deadliest WARRIOR not Deadliest WEAPON, so yes, tactics should have an equal weight to weapons, but the show is just about weapons. Apache warriors NEVER attacked one on one, they ambushed their enemies and used guerrilla tactics. Ninja NEVER attacked in broad daylight OR head on, their weapons were mostly old farm tools or were converted Samurai weapons. So they had to use stealth, and attack when it was least suspected. Are you an Apache? Are you a real ninja? Where you there when all of these events occurred? So it would be impossible for you to know for absolutely certain about any of this. As for all the NEVER, most of the time, sure, I'll believe that. Never? Very highly doubt it. The crossbow was a revolutionary weapon, it has it's roots all the way back in ancient China, It's most famous use was in Medival times though. I have not seen that episode but it is likely that Alexander did have access to the Greek version of the weapon. Most famous =/= revolutionary. About the LTL{Less Then Lethal} weapons, if the show is about being deadly why did they test weapons DESIGNED NOT TO KILL? Then bitch about them not being lethal? Seems mighty dumb to me. Because they don't pick the weapons. The representatives themselves bring in those weapons. About the Bowie Knife vs Switchblade, Every other time they sided with brute force and this ONE TIME they side with the one that has both less utility and power. You can go between the ribs with almost any knife, just turn it sideways and stab in an upward angle. Even if it had to go through bone, it wouldn't have much of a problem because the Bowie Knife is a quite heavy knife. Soon as you can find me someone who can and has on several occasions stabbed someone sideways with a knife. Before you side blindly with the show, do some independent research and you will found how how many flaws this show has. I have in fact. I'm a big history buff, especially in the ancient civilizations. And I'm not "blindly" siding with anything, I'm just pointing out the inaccuracies that is trying to be passed off as fact. lay off the Ad Homenum attacks. Ad Hominem, not Ad Homenum. And even then you're not using it right. Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an ad hominem. Proper usage would be more along the lines of "You claim that this man is innocent, but you cannot be trusted since you are a criminal as well." You're really gonna pull the "IF you don't agree with us, shut up card?" Only fucking idiots or those that are incredibly ignorant pull that card. PERIOD! I'm not seeing where you get that idea. All I see is someone not caring what another thinks. Much like I don't care what others opinions are, as long as there is a logical reason as to why. When someone gets things wrong, I point them out. Their points are not empty, sure he got a couple of things wrong but he did this on the fly for almost an hour. Yeah, and my reactions where on the fly for almost an hour, yet here I am proving him wrong. Judging from how both of you reacted to his opinion, I think this gif is applicable here. I have no reason to "hate" on anyone. I've never seen this guy before, I don't know who he is. So I have no reason to hate him. In fact, I still don't. Sure, he made me mad because he was throwing out things that were not true, but I don't hate the guy for it. Do I care he doesn't like the show? No. Do I care that you call it trash science? No. Do I care about good reasoning as to why? Yes. So take what Mikey said and apply it to yourself, because that's what you are doing. I'm countering his opinion with my own, and you are hating me for that. |
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Post by kimmy on May 7, 2010 21:30:33 GMT -5
I'm gonna take up the battleaxe once again and throw my opinion out there.
Deadliest Warrior is one of my favourite shows on television right now, I look at it as both a form of entertainement and as a form of watching some of my favourite historical and modern weaponry tear shit up. I am by no means a fanboy because I can see flaws with the show as well.........when Al Capone loses to Jesse James, c'mon gimme a fuckin break.
Here's the biggest thing, none of the guys are using real science and never said they were..........one guy is biomedical expert, one's a nerd, and the other's a doctor. They enter statistics into a computer simulation program based on the factors that they've decided would seem fair. Not all of it is based on raw power clearly because a perfect instance for me is having joe-blow Spetsnaz op, shooting a Dragunov compared to a guy linked to the IRA, shooting a far superior sniper rifle. Honestly in that case it's about the handler of the weapon. The mismatches of weapons on the show get to me sometimes......referring back to Capone/James, a Grenade vs a Winchester Rifle ?? c'mon that's just fucked.
At the end of each episode I don't sit and bitch about the improper use of science, I sit and go fuck that awesome and if my guy loses I'm pissed.
It's a show, an awesome one, people read WAY too much into it and need to settle down and view it for what it is, a television show.
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Vault
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Post by Vault on May 8, 2010 1:34:30 GMT -5
My second response was almost entirely to Punch, and Yes ANY time you attack the person and not the argument it is Ad Hominem. You see, I'm not hating on you, I was attacking your points not you. If I hated you I would have been much less civil then I was. FYI They did the maze several times actually. This is true, but the reason I brought it up was he was not getting the correct information out there. It's a pet peeve of mine that people will make claims when the facts they present are not correct at all. He was passing one maze off as another. He was referring to the time they did it with the Green Berets vs Spetsnaz in Season 1. Where they called the Green Beret pistol better because the Spetsnaz guy missed one target. The Green Beret's Pistol is better BUT not for that reason. His point bringing that up was that the test was bogus. Are you an Apache? Are you a real ninja? Where you there when all of these events occurred? So it would be impossible for you to know for absolutely certain about any of this. As for all the NEVER, most of the time, sure, I'll believe that. Never? Very highly doubt it. No, I was not there, nor am I an Apache BUT I do know quite a bit about their tactics. They would never willingly attack head on if they could help it, because they were often out classed weapon wise when they were fighting. Same goes for the Ninja, it was in their best interest to attack from behind when they did, like i said their weapons were often converted farm tool so their tactics reflected that. Most famous =/= revolutionary. No it does not but the Pope did call using it a war crime when it was introduced to Mideval Europe. Because they don't pick the weapons. The representatives themselves bring in those weapons. Doesn't matter, The show is called Deadliest Warrior, they should either not test the LTL weapons or tell them not to bring them. Soon as you can find me someone who can and has on several occasions stabbed someone sideways with a knife. I mis-worded that, I should have said horizontally instead of sideways. I have in fact. I'm a big history buff, especially in the ancient civilizations. And I'm not "blindly" siding with anything, I'm just pointing out the inaccuracies that is trying to be passed off as fact. Then I don't see why we are having this discussion, you should know how many flaws are in this show's history and science. Ad Hominem, not Ad Homenum. And even then you're not using it right. Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an ad hominem. Proper usage would be more along the lines of "You claim that this man is innocent, but you cannot be trusted since you are a criminal as well." Any time you attack the person and not the argument it is Ad Hominem. I'm not seeing where you get that idea. All I see is someone not caring what another thinks. Much like I don't care what others opinions are, as long as there is a logical reason as to why. When someone gets things wrong, I point them out. That was in response to Punch saying. That is classic "IF you don't agree with us, shut up." I have no respect for anyone who has that position on anything. If you have that position you must not have faith in what you believe to not be able to hear any criticism of it. I don't always agree with Spoony, but I respect his right to say it, unlike some people. Yeah, and my reactions where on the fly for almost an hour, yet here I am proving him wrong Judging from how both of you reacted to his opinion, I think this gif is applicable here. I have no reason to "hate" on anyone. I've never seen this guy before, I don't know who he is. So I have no reason to hate him. In fact, I still don't. Sure, he made me mad because he was throwing out things that were not true, but I don't hate the guy for it. Do I care he doesn't like the show? No. Do I care that you call it trash science? No. Do I care about good reasoning as to why? Yes. So take what Mikey said and apply it to yourself, because that's what you are doing. I'm countering his opinion with my own, and you are hating me for that. Had you been more respectful, I wouldn't have responded as aggressively as I did. I am sorry if I offended or angered you, I have little or no tolerance for flaming or personal attacks where they are not called for. I'm gonna take up the battleaxe once again and throw my opinion out there. Deadliest Warrior is one of my favourite shows on television right now, I look at it as both a form of entertainement and as a form of watching some of my favourite historical and modern weaponry tear shit up. I am by no means a fanboy because I can see flaws with the show as well.........when Al Capone loses to Jesse James, c'mon gimme a fuckin break. I had Al Capone pegged to win, the advancement of clip loaded firearms, and Machine Guns should have been way too much for The James Gang to overcome. Here's the biggest thing, none of the guys are using real science and never said they were..........one guy is biomedical expert, one's a nerd, and the other's a doctor. They enter statistics into a computer simulation program based on the factors that they've decided would seem fair. Not all of it is based on raw power clearly because a perfect instance for me is having joe-blow Spetsnaz op, shooting a Dragunov compared to a guy linked to the IRA, shooting a far superior sniper rifle. Honestly in that case it's about the handler of the weapon. The mismatches of weapons on the show get to me sometimes......referring back to Capone/James, a Grenade vs a Winchester Rifle ?? c'mon that's just fucked. They are running experiments to test the weapons, thus using science. I would disagree on the PSG-1 being far superior to the Dragunov. The Dragunov has seen actual combat, and the PSG-1 is used only for counter terror and Police ops. The Dragunov's effective range is longer at 1,300m with scope, and the PSG-1's effective range is only 800m with a scope. The PSG-1 is newer but newer doesn't always mean better. The mismatching of weapons is another problem I have with the show. At the end of each episode I don't sit and bitch about the improper use of science, I sit and go fuck that awesome and if my guy loses I'm pissed. It's a show, an awesome one, people read WAY too much into it and need to settle down and view it for what it is, a television show. I find the show entertaining as well, but the junk science does get on my nerves. Even spoony said he enjoyed watching the show, just the science puts him off to the point he skips to the end most of the time. |
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Post by kimmy on May 8, 2010 18:47:03 GMT -5
The IRA didn't have the PSG-1, GSG9 did, the IRA had a sniper rifle fairly similar but not exactly and I don't remember 1000% what it was called  |
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Vault
Welcomed Guest
Posts: 150
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Post by Vault on May 8, 2010 18:57:50 GMT -5
Sorry lol I had to consult Wikipedia because I couldn't remember what the IRA had,
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Post by gallas on May 9, 2010 11:43:31 GMT -5
While many valid points where made here, what was also done here was people decided to do what is expressly looked down upon by staff, take it person. Most notably the post made by you, Vault, using the gif. Not only was it in poor taste, but it did nothing to validate you point. While we're all for allowing members to engage in heated debates, we don't condone when it gets immature. Because that's when it starts to get offensive, then disruptive. So on that note, I'm locking thread indefinity. And further more from this point on I'm going to ask everyone, and I do mean everyone to use better judgment when posting topics like this. If you know in your mind's eye that the subject matter is going to cause smoke, even for the most minial reason, don'tpost it. Otherwise we'll nip the problem in the bud and deny everyone from making such posts period.
And please, no "explanation" PMs to try and make you final case. This argument is dead as of me hitting the "post reply" button. Since the voice of reason is officially lost in this thread, the voice of authority is shutting it down.
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Post by Thr33XWA on May 9, 2010 14:21:08 GMT -5
And one more thing... I threw away the scientific accuracy of DW once they said that a Ninja would lose to a Spartan. Ninjas kick ass! Just watch 300 and then Ninja Assassin. Who kicked more ass in their movie? I rest my case. lol (Moral of the story: Like it or hate it, watch it if you like, don't if you hate it...and life goes on. Who expected educational programming on Spike anyway? That's what they have CSI for. ;D ) |
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